Subject: A Song of Ice and Fire 1,462 views

Anna Staff Posts: 2,716 Hogwarts House: Ravenclaw Who is YOUR Doctor?: 6 (Colin Baker 84-86) Current F1 Driver?: Fernando Alonso	A Song of Ice and Fire Jul 4, 2013 16:07:11 GMT Post by Anna on Jul 4, 2013 16:07:11 GMT Jul 4, 2013 15:39:44 GMT Lucius said: Jul 4, 2013 14:26:19 GMT Anna said: That is not how it works and you know it! It was the Targareyen's throne because they won it off of someone else. They were conquerors and they themselves got conquered by the Baratheons, well... Robert. The throne is actually now the Baratheon's to hold until they themselves are conquered. Just because a Targareyen once sat on the throne does not mean for the rest of time that throne belongs to them. You ask why Robb didn't bow to the Lannisters whilst arguing that Dany is honor bound for the throne?! REALLY?! Lets see the Lannisters where never well liked ANYWAY, they are being blamed for the fall that his brother suffered, they started destroying the Riverlands the moment that Catelyn took Tyrion, Joffery beheaded Robb's father and is thought to have his two sisters as hostages. Because of course in a world where honor is foremost even for people like the Lannisters bowing to the people that chopped your fathers head off for being a traitor is going to happen. Of course. Why not just crown the Lannisters and get on with it? Anyway if they DID bow to the Lannisters they would have been forced to march against both Baratheons. Plus even if they did sit in Winterfell they'd have the Others coming for them (or have you forgotten that 1. Winter IS coming and 2. Winterfell will be the closest to the wall?) So Robb should have lost all his honor and bowed to the people who killed his father and waited in his castle? Why couldn't Dany have done the same? She was in a even better position, she never knew the family that was killed before she was born, she never knew the people that did it, she wanted a home with a red door? Drogo would have ripped every red door off of the hinges and taken them with them whilst they traveled. Drogo would have done a lot if she had been content with forgetting about people that she didn't know, honor for a family she'd never met and just sat back in her castle with the love of her life and got over herself. Because Dany is a princess, the rightful heir to the throne and Robb is just a Lord that should have known his place! Why should Dany sit in exile after the Baratheons killed her family and stole her birthright? Drogo died because he loved Dany and he'd do anything for her. He knew her rightful place was on the throne as do everyone that follows her! Wrong. Targareyen rule had been ended by the time Dany was born. Dany was NEVER a Princess, her brother told her what she could have been but by the time she was being told all this by her brother the Baratheons were the royal family whether fans of the Targareyen's like it or not! Robb does know his place, his family line were former Kings of the North, when war starts the Starks must raise the banners of the North and lead them into battle, he needs to stand by his and the Stark and the Norths honor and pride. The point is you want Dany to be an underdog. She isn't. I brought Robb into it to show someone that was FORCED to make big decisions, Dany didn't, Dany has made it her path to join this fight to take a throne that at the beginning of the book she didn't want! A path to conquer a country she's never seen! Robb doesn't want to conquer, yes he took the name "King of the North" as was the Stark's title before they gave it up but he went to war for honor and peace, Dany is as bad as the Lannisters and is not an easy character to get behind. You understand why Robb did what he did he's a young lad whose father went to the South with his sisters and never came back! None of them did. Lets face it, it wasn't even just Ned that got killed ALL THEIR PEOPLE were killed!
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Rick Staff Posts: 379	A Song of Ice and Fire Jul 5, 2013 0:49:07 GMT Post by Rick on Jul 5, 2013 0:49:07 GMT Jul 4, 2013 15:39:44 GMT Lucius said: Why should Dany sit in exile after the Baratheons killed her family and stole her birthright? Why should Robb have bowed to the Lannisters after they chopped his fathers head off? Anna asked you that and even told you the reason why he shouldn't have, in fact she's probably blue in the face saying it, you can not ask one question and ignore the resulting question. Neither can you bat away that question with a "they should know their place" and not expect it back. The Starks are decendant from the First Men, therefore they have greater bonds to the North then the Targareyen's have in general to their throne. In actual fact it was Dany's ancestors that stole the Stark's birthrights after taking charge, the Starks were kings of the North long before the Targareyens muscled in. If you go far enough back in the history of anything you can find someone more deserving of something then someone else. The fact is, even if you support Dany, she never had to leave the Dothraki, never had to go to war, she chose that path. If you can not see that she had the choice of happiness or war and decided on war whereas Robb had his happiness taken and had to choose which side of the war he'd be on because there was a war coming and he was smack in the middle of it so did an honorable thing then that is up to you.
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Rick Staff Posts: 379	A Song of Ice and Fire Jul 5, 2013 0:53:32 GMT Post by Rick on Jul 5, 2013 0:53:32 GMT As for Anna's question on why I support Stannis. For a start he is the rightful King as far as succession goes. Robert had no baseborn children, bastards can't inherit therefore it should go to the elder of his two siblings. Stannis is a good character, it is hard to like him, hard to understand him and sometimes hard to support his cause but he is doing it out of honor more then wanting to be king. He helped put Robert on the throne even though he was the eldest and had to see Robert treat friends better then he treated Stannis. He was the sad child that was always in the shadow of his more lively and attractive brothers. His daughter ended up disfigured and he has a wife that it must be hard to love at times. It is hard to tell if he emotionally loves or mechanically loves things but he's taken everything that life has thrown at him and I believe would make the better ruler. To begin with I was fully behind Stannis and the Starks. I wanted the Seven Kingdoms to belong to their own. The only characters I want to have a happy ending are Stannis and Tyrion.
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Lucius Join a Fellowship... Posts: 1,502	A Song of Ice and Fire Jul 6, 2013 20:18:37 GMT Post by Lucius on Jul 6, 2013 20:18:37 GMT I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one as we are just going around in circles. Just remember I was right.
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Anna Staff Posts: 2,716 Hogwarts House: Ravenclaw Who is YOUR Doctor?: 6 (Colin Baker 84-86) Current F1 Driver?: Fernando Alonso	A Song of Ice and Fire Jul 8, 2013 11:29:27 GMT Post by Anna on Jul 8, 2013 11:29:27 GMT I'll agree to disagree with the Dany stuff but I think it is a good debate on whether or not PoV characters are the only important thing in the story. After all lots of very important plot characters aren't PoV. And from spoilers that I've found out being a PoV character doesn't save you from grisly goings on. How do we really define what is important in the characters in a book written so differently from 90% of the books out there?! Eddard Stark was one of the most important characters in GoT and look what happened to him! Head on a spike in Kings Landing. Littlefinger and Varys are pretty important, they keep the whole thing going! It is one or the other of them that seems to have a finger in whatever is happening and Varys knows everything that does happen so how important do we view them based on the fact that they don't have a PoV chapter? So far we've had what Catelyn, Eddard, Jon Snow, Dany, Tyrion, The Onion Knight, Theon, Bran, Sansa and Ayria? Maybe a few that I've missed. Are they the only important characters? And what happens when a PoV character that is seen as "unimportant" ends up in a PoV chapter for themselves do we suddenly have to believe he went from being really unimportant to mega important within the space of a book? So far it has been Cat that seems to have started the war... SPOILER: Click to show She forced Eddard to go to Kings Landing, she kidnapped Tyrion and took him the the Eeyrie which made Jamie and Tywin start war with the Riverlands, she's the one whispering in Robb's ear that makes him second guess himself But that war has been fought between three non-PoV characters (Robb, Tywin and Jamie) so do we learn from this that the war is unimportant?! Maybe it would be worth figuring out as we go on what the important events are and which PoV characters and NPoV characters are involved.
Edited by Anna [Jul 8, 2013 11:30:42 GMT] Reply Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top

Lucius Join a Fellowship... Posts: 1,502	A Song of Ice and Fire Jul 9, 2013 12:47:57 GMT Post by Lucius on Jul 9, 2013 12:47:57 GMT If they aren't PoV characters then I'd say they are pretty dispensable. You don't have people love characters like Littlefinger as much as people love Dany, you don't end up in his head seeing the events through his eyes therefore what happens to him is of little importance. Of course what makes Littlefinger a tad different from Robb is that there is a whole story behind him, an emotional connection that is deeper than "he's my son" to Cat and a whole plot revolving around him, he is still dispensable because if he died then the storyline he's in will either wither and die and be unimportant or else he will be killed by an important character and his story moved further by a character we actually like. If we want to go into putting down slowly all the events that happened, well first off I'd need to know where you are in the book! Though I guess I could start with GoT since you've read that one. The war isn't unimportant but at the same time the characters fighting it can die without consequence and be replaced by someone else quite easily. Are you telling me if Tywin dies in the book you'd be emotionally as upset as if Tyrion died?
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Anna Staff Posts: 2,716 Hogwarts House: Ravenclaw Who is YOUR Doctor?: 6 (Colin Baker 84-86) Current F1 Driver?: Fernando Alonso	A Song of Ice and Fire Jul 10, 2013 13:03:27 GMT Post by Anna on Jul 10, 2013 13:03:27 GMT .......... I love Littlefinger, Varys, Tywin, Robb and some other characters that aren't PoV, most of them I like a lot better then the PoV characters. Mainly because if I just SAW the story of the PoV characters I'd probably like them a whole lot more, as it is some of them are just messed up in the head and it is hard to like them at all. Renly is another I like that isn't a PoV character. Lets be fair there are a fair few of the PoV characters that haven't had anything major happen to them yet whilst some of the NPoV characters HAVE had major events happen to them. I don't think we're meant to feel the NPoV characters are pointless I think you are meant to compare and contrast your feelings for them in the different ways they are presented and to be honest think you've missed the point of some of the characters by miles! I'm basically a quater of the way through A Clash of Kings. SPOILER: Click to show Tyrion is just about to confront Pycelle but I wouldn't mind starting to list things with you, I feel my important events might not be the same as yours! I doubt we'd have to go by book, start with the big events in spoiler tags ending with A Clash of Kings and carrying on from there. As for Tywin and Tryion well no! But the whole point of Tywin is you aren't meant to like him so why would I be happy a horrible ******* dies whilst quite a sweet character like Tryion who has his problems but his social ones are down to his family more then him is obvious to make you cry if they die! The comparison is meant to be made with Tyrion and Robb or Tyrion and... I don't know... Gendry or Robert when he died or Renly or any other half likable character! (Drogo even, you feel a bit sad when Drogo dies.)
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Anna Staff Posts: 2,716 Hogwarts House: Ravenclaw Who is YOUR Doctor?: 6 (Colin Baker 84-86) Current F1 Driver?: Fernando Alonso	A Song of Ice and Fire Jul 10, 2013 13:08:20 GMT Post by Anna on Jul 10, 2013 13:08:20 GMT Important events SPOILER: Click to show Robert comes to Winterfell and makes Ned the Hand of the King, Catelyn forces him to accept. Brans fall - viewers finding out about Jamie/Cersi and figuring out that Joff is a *****. Jon goes to the wall. Cat kidnapping Tyrion and taking him to the Eyrie. Ned finding out that Joff is a *****. Roberts death. Neds arrest and death. Arya and Gendry being whisked away. War against Robb/Twyin. Renly and Stannis announce their claims to the throne. Of course I've missed some as that is off hand what has happened and when. Make changes as you will .
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Rick Staff Posts: 379	A Song of Ice and Fire Jul 11, 2013 23:03:22 GMT Post by Rick on Jul 11, 2013 23:03:22 GMT I'd have to get out my books to add anything on. Let me see. SPOILER: Click to show Robert Baratheon becomes King of the Seven Kingdoms (not in book but talked about so important) Others attack Rangers from the Wall, two die and one deserts Ned Stark beheads the deserter Robert arrives at Winterfell and makes Ned the Hand of the King Catelyn convinces Ned to go to Kings Landing Bran is pushed by Jamie after finding out he is sleeping with Queen Cersi (auidence realize Joffery is a *****) Ned/Sansa/Ayra go to Kings Landing Jon goes to the Wall Catelyn goes to Kings Landing after Bran is attacked / Littlefinger blames Tyrion Catelyn on return captures Tyrion and takes him to the Eyrie Tywin and Jamie start to ransack the River Lords lands Ned slowly finds out about Roberts bastards and that Joffery is a ***** King Robert dies from a boar attack whilst being made drunk by a Lannister Ned defies Queen Cersi and is arrested and executed Ayra is whisked away from Kings Landing / Sansa is prisoner of Cersi Robb goes to war with the Lannisters Winter is finally announced as on its way Renly and Stannis announce their attentions for the throne This of course ignores some important stories. SPOILER: Click to show Dany is sold to Drogo Dany becomes pregnant Dany gives birth to Dragons The Comet Stannis taking on the fire religion Jon Arryns death Drogo's death The Watch marching North The two dead rising and attempting to kill Mormont Joffery announced King And I know so many other things happened at the beginning of the second book I'm forgetting, I tried not to put too much from the second book in as I don't want to spoil anything for you.
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Lucius Join a Fellowship... Posts: 1,502	A Song of Ice and Fire Jul 12, 2013 15:18:48 GMT Post by Lucius on Jul 12, 2013 15:18:48 GMT Yeah I did notice both Anna's list and your first one missed out mentioning Dany. How is any of her story unimportant? One problem I have without looking at anything is figuring out timing of events but I'm adding her big events in. SPOILER: Click to show Robert Baratheon becomes King of the Seven Kingdoms (not in book but talked about so important) Jorah Mormont is exiled Other's attack Rangers from the Wall, two die and one deserts Ned Stark beheads the deserter Robert arrives at Winterfell and makes Ned the Hand of the King Dany is given to Drogo and becomes Kahlessi Catelyn convinces Ned to go to Kings Landing Bran is pushed by Jamie after finding out he is sleeping with Queen Cersei (auidence realize Joffery is a *****) Ned/Sansa/Ayra go to Kings Landing Jon goes to the Wall Catelyn goes to Kings Landing after Bran is attacked / Littlefinger blames Tyrion Catelyn on return captures Tyrion and takes him to the Eyrie Tywin and Jamie start to ransack the River Lords lands Ned slowly finds out about Roberts bastards and that Joffery is a ***** King Robert dies from a boar attack whilst being made drunk by a Lannister Ned defies Queen Cersei and is arrested and executed Ayra is whisked away from Kings Landing / Sansa is prisoner of Cersei Khal Drogo is killed and so is Dany's unborn Son Dany's Dragons are born Dany's Khaleesar is torn apart and made anew Dany's comet arrives Robb goes to war with the Lannisters Winter is finally announced as on its way Renly and Stannis announce their attentions for the throne Dany arrives at Quarth and finds out that Robert is dead I know you both have a problem with her but how is Jon Arryns death any more important then the birth of her dragons or her becoming a leader of an army? Plus I think we need a key system here. Personally big important stories should probably be colour co-ordinated by poster. I've chosen a green (hex code 21e619) there are a few that Rick has added on from Anna's post which I'm highlighting in an orange (hex code e69c19) if any are agreed mutally to be important then we'll use the default colours (hex code 1979e6)
Edited by Lucius [Jul 12, 2013 15:22:56 GMT] Changed the green as it was unreadable, I feel the forum is against Dany too Reply Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top

Anna Staff Posts: 2,716 Hogwarts House: Ravenclaw Who is YOUR Doctor?: 6 (Colin Baker 84-86) Current F1 Driver?: Fernando Alonso	A Song of Ice and Fire Jul 12, 2013 19:40:18 GMT Post by Anna on Jul 12, 2013 19:40:18 GMT SPOILER: Click to show Robert Baratheon becomes King of the Seven Kingdoms (not in book but talked about so important) Jorah Mormont is exiled Other's attack Rangers from the Wall, two die and one deserts Ned Stark beheads the deserter Robert arrives at Winterfell and makes Ned the Hand of the King Dany is given to Drogo and becomes Kahlessi Catelyn convinces Ned to go to Kings Landing Bran is pushed by Jamie after finding out he is sleeping with Queen Cersei (auidence realize Joffery is a *****) Ned/Sansa/Ayra go to Kings Landing Jon goes to the Wall Catelyn goes to Kings Landing after Bran is attacked / Littlefinger blames Tyrion Catelyn on return captures Tyrion and takes him to the Eyrie Tywin and Jamie start to ransack the River Lords lands Ned slowly finds out about Roberts bastards and that Joffery is a ***** King Robert dies from a boar attack whilst being made drunk by a Lannister Ned defies Queen Cersei and is arrested and executed Ayra is whisked away from Kings Landing / Sansa is prisoner of Cersei Khal Drogo is killed and so is Dany's unborn Son Dany's Dragons are born Dany's Khaleesar is torn apart and made anew The Comet appears Robb goes to war with the Lannisters Winter is finally announced as on its way The Nightwatch march North towards Mance Ryder Renly and Stannis announce their attentions for the throne Arya is caught and sent to Harrenhal (no one knows she is a Stark) Dany arrives at Quarth and finds out that Robert is dead [/span] OK we'll colour co-ordinate the ones that we can't agree on, I'll give you some of Dany's but to be honest Dany's Khaleesar problems, her marriage and Drogo don't really have an impact on the actual STORY it is more Dany's character development which isn't the point of the list (if that was the point we'll be re-writing the books out) I mean KEY events that will impact the whole of the story. I've only just got to the last point you made about Dany and agree with it but I rewrote the comet because everyone is using it as an omen it just so happened to appear first in Dany's chapter. It isn't as colourful as yours but as I said I think some of what you added was fair! It wasn't meant to be taken as a nasty Ignore Dany thing I was just naming off the top of my head basically the stuff to do with the war which she'll become part of but to be fair she hasn't really done anything towards yet.
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Rick Staff Posts: 379	A Song of Ice and Fire Jul 12, 2013 21:55:15 GMT Post by Rick on Jul 12, 2013 21:55:15 GMT Even though it was me that first mentioned Dany's marriage and Drogo's death I see what you mean. If we are going to add character development moments we might be here a long time. The whole story began with Robert taking the throne, the stories of the Others and Children of the Forest becoming Legends that children ignored when they grew older and the greed of the Lannisters. SPOILER: Click to show We all agree Robert being made king is important, he kills the last Targareyan king and starts Dany's story off. Robert Baratheon was never a Point of View character. Secondly we agree Jorah's exile is important because he has such a major impact on Dany and again he isn't a Point of View character. So far bearing in mind we are keeping up with Anna's pace as this started as your two's falling out Jamie and Cersei who are two of the most reaccuring characters in that list aren't Point of View characters but later on are elevated to PoV (not really a spoiler I'm guessing you either know that or would guess it) I am not sure how you can say that the war between the Starks and the Lannisters isn't important. It is fought between Robb and his bannermen (no PoV character) and Twyin/Jamie (NPoV characters) yet if they didn't go to war the story would be totally different. We'd never get to the Red Wedding, Kings Landing wouldn't be in a state through lack of supplies, Jamie would never be captured and then sent on his adventures with Brieanne and Tryion would never have been the hand of Joffery because Tywin would have marched straight from Casterly Rock to Kings Landing to be Joff's hand. Not to mention the Night Watch so far is all about them v Mance Ryder who they wouldn't have even met where Anna is! Then you have Littlefinger who is behind quite a bit of it. He sets Cat up, he sets Ned up, he sets Tyrion up. His lie to Cat gets her to kidnap Tyrion which sets off Tywin and Jamie made Robert and Ned fall out and made Cersei even more dangerous. Then when Ned needed his help he gave his "loyalty" to Cersei and look where Ned ended up? Plus if we add what you want to add Drogo's marriage to Dany and death are important. So if this list is to see how important NPoV characters are so far without even mentioning anything after about a quarter of a way through the second book I'd say NPoV characters are just, if a little more, important then some of the PoV characters.
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Anna Staff Posts: 2,716 Hogwarts House: Ravenclaw Who is YOUR Doctor?: 6 (Colin Baker 84-86) Current F1 Driver?: Fernando Alonso	A Song of Ice and Fire Jul 12, 2013 22:34:01 GMT Post by Anna on Jul 12, 2013 22:34:01 GMT I just wrote out a really long and wonderful message just for Firefox to stop working, IE to go crazy and now when I tried pasting what I wrote into Word for Word to go mad. It will be worth the wait till tomorrow if I even remember what I was writing but I'm off to forget about GoT and stupid internet browsers and just go watch some Karneval!
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Anna Staff Posts: 2,716 Hogwarts House: Ravenclaw Who is YOUR Doctor?: 6 (Colin Baker 84-86) Current F1 Driver?: Fernando Alonso	A Song of Ice and Fire Jul 15, 2013 9:55:34 GMT Post by Anna on Jul 15, 2013 9:55:34 GMT YAY my point was important! Thing is all characters in this are disposable. My point is that you should not look at NPoV characters like their stories are unimportant, you should read them as importantly as the PoV characters. After all Harry Potter was the only PoV character in the Harry Potter series and one of the major characters of the whole of that story was hardly a "main" character or even in Harry's train of thought most of the time! In other news... You were right I do like Bran a lot better now, he's stopped feeling sorry for himself and I'm quite enjoying him as a Lord (Prince) I think it suits him better than Robb. His talks with the Reeds is pretty interesting as well I quite like that duo they have had a good impact on him. When my other post didn't post I was saying I understood why you liked Stannis so much. I had just read his back and forth with Renly and even if he isn't likable and is too strict and proud he does only what he thinks is right. To be honest I do feel like Robert did him a disservice and understand both why Robert might have preferred his brother and Ned to Stannis and why Stannis feels the way he does about it. After all Storms End was his not Renly's and even if Robert was giving him Dragonskeep because he felt he deserved it and was doing him a favor it still robbed him of his birth right. Robert was King and had Kings Landing if anything Stannis was meant to have by law Storms End. I might have missed something but the way I read it Robert didn't dislike Stannis it is more that Stannis is hard to like. Even Stannis probably knows he's hard to like. Seeing Stannis took Dragonskeep maybe Robert thought he was doing him an honor? We'll never know because we never really got anything from Robert about his feelings for Stannis or Renly! I have liked how one track minded Stannis is but he still has a lot of love (strange as his form of love is more based in honor then in emotion) for his wife and child. Really enjoyed Renly and Stannis chatting. BUT I've now read on and ... SPOILER: Click to show I prefer the book to the TV show the whole stupid "Red Women giving birth to a shadow" thing really was stupid and I'm glad we didn't have to go through that in the book! But I still feel that Stannis didn't win that with anything reaching honor and would be interested in knowing if they touch on how he felt about it because that was low handed and not befitting his character at all. With that single moment I don't think I can get on his side unless he was unaware or unwanting of that type of help. Now Cersei and Tyrion are the best coupling in this book they've had me laughing for chapters now! And I'm so happy that Tyrion saved Sansa. I know my mum doesn't like Sansa but I feel so sorry for her, she's just a stupid girl who had a stupid crush and disliked her sister who was the complete opposite of her. She tried to do right by her father, and did! It was Joffery who didn't do anything anyone told him to do, Joffery is full of hate and wants blood. Sansa has paid for any ill she really did a 100 times over at the hands of that *******. Man I hate Joffery! The Hound is still at the top of my "must survive" list he is a wonderful character and such a contrast to his brother! Ser Dontos is a lovely character too. Jon Snow's chapters are starting to become unreadable, there just seems so much of the time is wasted describing to the reader the land around him. I feel if I skip a page of Jons chapter I won't miss much other then to know exactly what shade of green a tree's 100th leaf was!
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Lucius Join a Fellowship... Posts: 1,502	A Song of Ice and Fire Jul 16, 2013 14:34:35 GMT Post by Lucius on Jul 16, 2013 14:34:35 GMT Jul 15, 2013 9:55:34 GMT Anna said: YAY my point was important! Thing is all characters in this are disposable. My point is that you should not look at NPoV characters like their stories are unimportant, you should read them as importantly as the PoV characters. After all Harry Potter was the only PoV character in the Harry Potter series and one of the major characters of the whole of that story was hardly a "main" character or even in Harry's train of thought most of the time! Yes but Harry Potter is TOTALLY different! We know the most important character will always be Harry, we go through the adventure with Harry and through his eyes. We learn he's as biased and flawed as the rest of us (every year the problem has to be Snape, there is never any lee way to who Snape is in Harry's eyes, Snape is evil... Until we find out he isn't of course, he's just as messed up as any other person). Important characters are only important when they do what it is that is important, we don't need any character development or big emotional moments because our feelings for characters are meant to be shaped by Harry. In this series we have characters pin pointed in PoV chapters that HAVE to be more important. They take on Harry's role, yes some rise from NPoV to PoV within the series as a whole but we ave been given, say a cast, of characters that we know have to be more important then someone who sneezes in front of them in one chapter because they are the ones we follow, they shape our view of the events. The other characters might have important story lines and events happen to them and around them but they are relatively minor compared to our PoV characters. Jul 15, 2013 9:55:34 GMT Anna said: When my other post didn't post I was saying I understood why you liked Stannis so much. I had just read his back and forth with Renly and even if he isn't likable and is too strict and proud he does only what he thinks is right. To be honest I do feel like Robert did him a disservice and understand both why Robert might have preferred his brother and Ned to Stannis and why Stannis feels the way he does about it. After all Storms End was his not Renly's and even if Robert was giving him Dragonskeep because he felt he deserved it and was doing him a favor it still robbed him of his birth right. Robert was King and had Kings Landing if anything Stannis was meant to have by law Storms End. I might have missed something but the way I read it Robert didn't dislike Stannis it is more that Stannis is hard to like. Even Stannis probably knows he's hard to like. Seeing Stannis took Dragonskeep maybe Robert thought he was doing him an honor? We'll never know because we never really got anything from Robert about his feelings for Stannis or Renly! I have liked how one track minded Stannis is but he still has a lot of love (strange as his form of love is more based in honor then in emotion) for his wife and child. Really enjoyed Renly and Stannis chatting. BUT I've now read on and ... SPOILER: Click to show Spoiler I prefer the book to the TV show the whole stupid "Red Women giving birth to a shadow" thing really was stupid and I'm glad we didn't have to go through that in the book! But I still feel that Stannis didn't win that with anything reaching honor and would be interested in knowing if they touch on how he felt about it because that was low handed and not befitting his character at all. With that single moment I don't think I can get on his side unless he was unaware or unwanting of that type of help. See this is why I dislike Stannis! He isn't half as honourable as he says he is. He's just like the rest of them, plus he's a boring character, I would have much rather had the Red Women not in the story and Stannis to have died at Renly's hand and Renly to be a main threat to the Kingdom. Renly was a much better character. Jul 15, 2013 9:55:34 GMT Anna said: Now Cersei and Tyrion are the best coupling in this book they've had me laughing for chapters now! And I'm so happy that Tyrion saved Sansa. I know my mum doesn't like Sansa but I feel so sorry for her, she's just a stupid girl who had a stupid crush and disliked her sister who was the complete opposite of her. She tried to do right by her father, and did! It was Joffery who didn't do anything anyone told him to do, Joffery is full of hate and wants blood. Sansa has paid for any ill she really did a 100 times over at the hands of that *******. Man I hate Joffery! The Hound is still at the top of my "must survive" list he is a wonderful character and such a contrast to his brother! Ser Dontos is a lovely character too. I don't like Sansa much as a character but I have to say that she opens up a different world to us to see. A totally different form of torture/abuse. She's a strong character and has some really nice moments with The Hound and Dontos. I can't really see what will happen to her in the end game with nearly all her family dead but I won't go into that as it would spoil other books for you.
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